RingoWas Hitler really that bad when compared with Stalin and Mao? I mean if people agree to it why can’t we have slavery? Canabilism isn’t really hurting anyone, its the murder that cause the harm, so like why do we care what happens to the rotting meat afterwards? As long as their using protection or its between the same sex what’s the actual negative to incest?
Nobody likes a devil’s advocate and well …it’s pretty easy to see why. We’re not exactly the most joyful of people. And really who likes being attacked when they’re just trying to have a conversation. Every time someone brings up one of these points you might as well the Simpsons Comic book guy “well actually” but like, more annoying because it pretends to be an argument in good faith, when it’s really the same thing as a pedantic argument over Fewer and lesser(which I will fight you to the death on if you get it wrong, so walk light. I’m a stepping razor.)
For real, fuck all those guys. And by that I mostly mean fuck me, cause like, I am those guys. It’s weird that it took 3 decades years of people telling me I was a contrarian asshole to realize the problem with it. Been too focused on the contrarian part and not enough on the asshole.
My whole life I’ve heard people tell me I always argue everything and disagree with everyone. To which I of course scoffed and disagreed. Cause it’s patently not true. Hell I had two conversations today where I asked someone how they were doing and I totally didn’t challenge them when they said OK. I mean, I knew one was lying because he had a limp and the other guy messed up by saying nothing, clearly answering the question he heard, “what’s up” which is clearly nor what I asked him, but I let it go because I’m magnanimous like that. See? I don’t argue everything.
On the real though, every time I heard someone say that I would get so fucking pissed. Especially if it was followed with, “You just love arguing.” Of course I do. It’s literally the Ringo Family love language. But that’s 100% not the point. I’m doing it because I’m trying to find the truth in your words, to understand them and digest them. And it kinda sucks to be told that your just an argumentative troll by a person your trying to engage and you’re emotionally invested in learning. It stings, more than a little. Especially after 30 years of it.
I almost never just poke holes in a statement for fun and if I do it’s because your the type of person who enjoys that type of banter. Generally I’m pointing out what I see to be a flaw in either your logic or your presentation of it, because that shit matters to me. The truth matters. Logic matters. Rhetoric matters. Accurate communication and the portrayal of ideas correctly are important aspects of my life. I’ve dedicated significant portions of my mental energy into learning logic, into learning cognitive biases, and communication tools. When I tell you I think you’re wrong, it’s not a game to make you mad and dance to my little strings no matter how much it looks like it to everyone.
But that’s just my perspective and that’s all I’ve seen for far too long. I used to pride myself on my ability to step outside my shoes and see other people’s points of view. It’s a thing I practiced for years(ironically enough as part of arguing multiple sides of a debate) but only intellectually. And then one day in my late teens I came to realize I didn’t have the empathy component and holy shit did that change how I viewed the world. And since then, I’ve practiced that too and thought I got pretty good. I often talk about how I feel bad for a number of people because they’re good people, they just can’t manage to see from other perspectives. They are entirely too self focused and perhaps self centered, even if they aren’t selfish. And I used to be that person so I always want to give them a chance.
Turns out though, I’m still that person. Cause for every time someone called me Dick for debating every point, all I heard was the technically incorrect part of the statement. I focused on debating every point. Completely missing the truth that honestly…that’s a pretty dick move dude. Shit. I’ve been a giant sack of unusable dildos and no one likes that.
It’s a fucking hard thing to realize a behavior you’ve practiced your whole life is toxic. And it doesn’t get easier. If anything it gets harder. This is not the first or even the 10th time I’ve had to rethink my entire worldview and way of life because I realize I was the douche. And this one may have been the hardest. Cause like… I don’t know how not to do it.
How do you not point out a flaw when you see it? How do you not poke at all sides of an idea or argument before accepting it? How do you just accept someone’s words without testing them for weaknesses? In internet terms, how do conversation?
I originally started writing this thinking I’d get to the end and have turned the argument back on itself. It would start as appearing to be a persuasive essay about how the devil’s advocates were just trolls and through progressively more useful examples pull a bait and switch showing the advantages of it. But as I planned it out I began to realize the truth…we are just trolls.
The problem is on a fundamental level I still believe in the activity. I believe in skepticism and rationalism with as close to the whole of my being as is possible for a nihilistic millennial to believe in anything. The concept that two fundamentally rationally people cannot agree to disagree is pretty close to a core truth to me and thus letting a statement I could theoretically disagree with any part of go uncheck creates an odious feeling in me.
It is also however a goal of mine not to cause harm, via word or deed if I can help it. It’s one I struggle hard with, mostly due to bad habits picked up as a youth, but I still strive for it. And while creating an argument every time is not the worst offense, I can finally see how annoying it can be to simply try to make a point only to have it constantly checked. I don’t want to always be putting my friends on the defensive, it’s just that I grew up knowing that any statement you made you better be able to defend it or you were gonna be made to look like a fool. And boy was I ever made a fool growing up. Pro tip for you, when you’re 12 years old and haven’t read a basic science book yet, don’t try to argue physics with two PHD’s.
Anyway I don’t know how to resolve these goals. I don’t know how to create a supportive encouraging environment, safe for the exploration and sharing of ideas, fears, and experiences, without at the same time being true to the part of me that demands all things be as close to factually accurate as possible. That which can be destroyed by the truth should be right? But like…how do you make that destruction not suck?